Comments on: A Few Thoughts on Marriage: Love in the Western World and the Eastern Church http://blog.westsrbdio.org/2009/09/14/a-few-thoughts-on-marriage-love-in-the-western-world-and-the-eastern-church/ "Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God." (Roman 15:7) Thu, 28 Apr 2011 13:19:15 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Kathryn http://blog.westsrbdio.org/2009/09/14/a-few-thoughts-on-marriage-love-in-the-western-world-and-the-eastern-church/comment-page-1/#comment-550 Kathryn Thu, 28 Apr 2011 13:19:15 +0000 http://blog.westsrbdio.org/?p=128#comment-550 The problem is also in the lack of teaching of our Orthodox hierarchy on this subject. If St. Paul says we are to pray without ceasing, can one pray while engaged in sexual intimacy? Each individual needs to test the spirit of their motivations and then, perhaps, they might learn from where the spirit of the desire is coming from. Pray for a blessing from Christ before having an encounter and see. Assuming Christ takes part in the marriage/relationship, one should not have a problem remaining "undefiled". Personally, after being married for 22 yrs. there are rare occasions when this intimacy seems to not have disturbed prayerfulness, but it arises out of the two of us being more humble and attuned to Christ as well as putting the other spouse first. The problem is also in the lack of teaching of our Orthodox hierarchy on this subject. If St. Paul says we are to pray without ceasing, can one pray while engaged in sexual intimacy? Each individual needs to test the spirit of their motivations and then, perhaps, they might learn from where the spirit of the desire is coming from. Pray for a blessing from Christ before having an encounter and see. Assuming Christ takes part in the marriage/relationship, one should not have a problem remaining “undefiled”. Personally, after being married for 22 yrs. there are rare occasions when this intimacy seems to not have disturbed prayerfulness, but it arises out of the two of us being more humble and attuned to Christ as well as putting the other spouse first.

]]> By: Nona Mills http://blog.westsrbdio.org/2009/09/14/a-few-thoughts-on-marriage-love-in-the-western-world-and-the-eastern-church/comment-page-1/#comment-392 Nona Mills Wed, 22 Dec 2010 17:28:40 +0000 http://blog.westsrbdio.org/?p=128#comment-392 Christians need to keep in mind that marriage is a contract between one man and one woman. This is the way that Christ interprets a marriage, and it is the way we should interpret it. Christians need to keep in mind that marriage is a contract between one man and one woman. This is the way that Christ interprets a marriage, and it is the way we should interpret it.

]]> By: Attorney Adriane Minalga http://blog.westsrbdio.org/2009/09/14/a-few-thoughts-on-marriage-love-in-the-western-world-and-the-eastern-church/comment-page-1/#comment-254 Attorney Adriane Minalga Sat, 09 Oct 2010 07:16:23 +0000 http://blog.westsrbdio.org/?p=128#comment-254 Fantastic point. I completely agree. Well said! Fantastic point. I completely agree. Well said!

]]> By: daniel http://blog.westsrbdio.org/2009/09/14/a-few-thoughts-on-marriage-love-in-the-western-world-and-the-eastern-church/comment-page-1/#comment-147 daniel Tue, 01 Dec 2009 15:23:25 +0000 http://blog.westsrbdio.org/?p=128#comment-147 Fortunately, Jesus Christ gave us His Church and the lives of saints (whose opinions have behind them the authority of the wonder-working grace of Christ that is wrought in their lives) to interpret His will for us regarding questions that are not explicitly addressed in the Gospels. When one proposes to speak for Christ, it is prudent to submit that interpretation to the Church. In this instance, this interpretation cannot be corroborated with that of any contemporary Holy Father or Mother, any saint, or any authority within Christ's Church. Furthermore, such an interpretation appears to quite seamlessly correspond to the "wisdom" of the present age, against which our Lord warned us when He instructed us that we, as His followers, are to be not of this world. Forgive me for presuming to represent the Church's teachings on this issue, which are not hidden in the least. I realize how sterile the atmosphere of a blog response can be. Do you have an Orthodox priest near you to whom you can submit your thoughts? It might help for you to encounter Christ's teaching on these matters in the person of a living witness of faith in Christ. Fortunately, Jesus Christ gave us His Church and the lives of saints (whose opinions have behind them the authority of the wonder-working grace of Christ that is wrought in their lives) to interpret His will for us regarding questions that are not explicitly addressed in the Gospels. When one proposes to speak for Christ, it is prudent to submit that interpretation to the Church. In this instance, this interpretation cannot be corroborated with that of any contemporary Holy Father or Mother, any saint, or any authority within Christ’s Church. Furthermore, such an interpretation appears to quite seamlessly correspond to the “wisdom” of the present age, against which our Lord warned us when He instructed us that we, as His followers, are to be not of this world.

Forgive me for presuming to represent the Church’s teachings on this issue, which are not hidden in the least. I realize how sterile the atmosphere of a blog response can be. Do you have an Orthodox priest near you to whom you can submit your thoughts? It might help for you to encounter Christ’s teaching on these matters in the person of a living witness of faith in Christ.

]]> By: Jan Stubbs http://blog.westsrbdio.org/2009/09/14/a-few-thoughts-on-marriage-love-in-the-western-world-and-the-eastern-church/comment-page-1/#comment-146 Jan Stubbs Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:01:02 +0000 http://blog.westsrbdio.org/?p=128#comment-146 The comments about marriage being only between a man and a woman ignore the question posed by the article. How do we tell what is a man and a woman? Should we use San Antonio law or California law? Church law does not answer this question, nor does Jesus. The fact that Jesus did not think to answer this question means we have to answer it in the way that he would.What would Jesus say to a married transexual person? I think he would decide that their love was more important that any other consideration. The comments about marriage being only between a man and a woman ignore the question posed by the article. How do we tell what is a man and a woman? Should we use San Antonio law or California law? Church law does not answer this question, nor does Jesus. The fact that Jesus did not think to answer this question means we have to answer it in the way that he would.What would Jesus say to a married transexual person? I think he would decide that their love was more important that any other consideration.

]]> By: daniel http://blog.westsrbdio.org/2009/09/14/a-few-thoughts-on-marriage-love-in-the-western-world-and-the-eastern-church/comment-page-1/#comment-145 daniel Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:00:15 +0000 http://blog.westsrbdio.org/?p=128#comment-145 Arica: This essay is about romantic love in the Western world as an effort to transcend daily routine (as such its roots are in the 12th century flourishing of Courtly Love in Europe) and, to a considerable extent, as an alternative to spiritual marriage (this can be seen in the literature of Courtly Love where the one disqualifying element that makes a person ineligible to be one's lover is that he or she is one's spouse!). Love and marriage, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is deeply rooted in one's world view and approach to relationships. The Christian model is one where both spouses come together in Christ. Both are primarily oriented toward Christ and, by growing closer to the Lord, they grow closer to one another. You touch on this in your second paragraph. However, homosexuality is a sin. Scripture, Holy Tradition, and 20 centuries worth of teachings from the Holy Fathers supports this understanding of the Church. There is no precedent for an alternate understanding. Love in Christ between members of the same sex, of course, is no sin. However homosexuality, or sodomy as it is referred to in Scripture, is. As much as that may sadden you (which is likely because of your good intentions in not wanting to see the behavior of those dear to you labeled a transgression), neither you nor I have the power to influence how the Lord wishes us to behave when it comes to marital relations. We have no authority to alter this Divinely-revealed understanding anymore than we have authority to approve of usury or to disapprove of fasting or almsgiving. Marriage is between a man and a woman. We are clearly commanded to love one another; therefore, love between men is natural just as love between women is natural. But when that love is sexualized, it is a perversion of spiritual love. To the extent that contemporary notions of homosexual marriage even exist, it is because they are built upon centuries worth of misunderstanding romantic love within heterosexual marriages. I pray that God gives all of us in the contemporary world the strength to continue our struggle to shed our attachment to the world's fallen ideas and sentiments and live according to the Divinely-revealed Truth of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is a path of love, meekness, and humility. Forgive me for any offense. Arica:

This essay is about romantic love in the Western world as an effort to transcend daily routine (as such its roots are in the 12th century flourishing of Courtly Love in Europe) and, to a considerable extent, as an alternative to spiritual marriage (this can be seen in the literature of Courtly Love where the one disqualifying element that makes a person ineligible to be one’s lover is that he or she is one’s spouse!). Love and marriage, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is deeply rooted in one’s world view and approach to relationships.

The Christian model is one where both spouses come together in Christ. Both are primarily oriented toward Christ and, by growing closer to the Lord, they grow closer to one another. You touch on this in your second paragraph.

However, homosexuality is a sin. Scripture, Holy Tradition, and 20 centuries worth of teachings from the Holy Fathers supports this understanding of the Church. There is no precedent for an alternate understanding. Love in Christ between members of the same sex, of course, is no sin. However homosexuality, or sodomy as it is referred to in Scripture, is. As much as that may sadden you (which is likely because of your good intentions in not wanting to see the behavior of those dear to you labeled a transgression), neither you nor I have the power to influence how the Lord wishes us to behave when it comes to marital relations. We have no authority to alter this Divinely-revealed understanding anymore than we have authority to approve of usury or to disapprove of fasting or almsgiving. Marriage is between a man and a woman. We are clearly commanded to love one another; therefore, love between men is natural just as love between women is natural. But when that love is sexualized, it is a perversion of spiritual love.

To the extent that contemporary notions of homosexual marriage even exist, it is because they are built upon centuries worth of misunderstanding romantic love within heterosexual marriages.

I pray that God gives all of us in the contemporary world the strength to continue our struggle to shed our attachment to the world’s fallen ideas and sentiments and live according to the Divinely-revealed Truth of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is a path of love, meekness, and humility.

Forgive me for any offense.

]]> By: Arica http://blog.westsrbdio.org/2009/09/14/a-few-thoughts-on-marriage-love-in-the-western-world-and-the-eastern-church/comment-page-1/#comment-141 Arica Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:53:27 +0000 http://blog.westsrbdio.org/?p=128#comment-141 I am deeply saddened by the following trivialization of the goals or desires of "gay" marriage as stated in your article - "This notion of romantic love for which homosexuals are now seeking legal sanction is the desire for an experience that transcends the dullness of daily routine: “passion is everywhere treated as an experience, something that will alter my life and enrich it with the unexpected, with thrilling chances, and with enjoyment ever more violent and gratifying”" I am an Orthodox Christian and have always found deep satisfaction in the Orthodox view of marriage: not only as a path to creating children, nor as a giving of one lesser valued to another (traditionally the woman "given" from the father to her husband), nor as a legalistic basis for property values and distribution of wealth. In the Orthodox marriage classes my husband and I took before our marriage we were (and still are!) heartened by the message that the Orthodox marriage is one in which we sustain each other and love each other so purely that our goal is to serve Christ in our love for each other and to help each other on our individual paths toward Him. This is very different from the marriage views of most people I know in a more secular setting. But not more so from heterosexuals than homosexuals. I know many gay people of fine and upstanding character who desire to be married for the same reasons I do. And I believe they should be able to do so. If we begin to remove the blessings and responsibilities of marriage from anyone a Church or someone's personal beliefs deems unfit or immoral, then very few individuals would be allowed to be married at all. Thieves, adulterers, liars, gossips, money lovers, murderers, rapists - all are currently able to marry without limitation both in and out of the church (depending upon the circumstances, of course). Against "bad" marriages? Of course, I am. I'm deeply against selfish and trivial marriage. But sexual orientation alone implies neither "good" or "bad" marriage. That someone wishes to love one someone as deeply, as unselfishly, and as responsibly and committed as I love my husband, is a beautiful thing that strengthens families and marriages. I am deeply saddened by the following trivialization of the goals or desires of “gay” marriage as stated in your article – “This notion of romantic love for which homosexuals are now seeking legal sanction is the desire for an experience that transcends the dullness of daily routine: “passion is everywhere treated as an experience, something that will alter my life and enrich it with the unexpected, with thrilling chances, and with enjoyment ever more violent and gratifying””

I am an Orthodox Christian and have always found deep satisfaction in the Orthodox view of marriage: not only as a path to creating children, nor as a giving of one lesser valued to another (traditionally the woman “given” from the father to her husband), nor as a legalistic basis for property values and distribution of wealth. In the Orthodox marriage classes my husband and I took before our marriage we were (and still are!) heartened by the message that the Orthodox marriage is one in which we sustain each other and love each other so purely that our goal is to serve Christ in our love for each other and to help each other on our individual paths toward Him. This is very different from the marriage views of most people I know in a more secular setting. But not more so from heterosexuals than homosexuals.

I know many gay people of fine and upstanding character who desire to be married for the same reasons I do. And I believe they should be able to do so. If we begin to remove the blessings and responsibilities of marriage from anyone a Church or someone’s personal beliefs deems unfit or immoral, then very few individuals would be allowed to be married at all. Thieves, adulterers, liars, gossips, money lovers, murderers, rapists – all are currently able to marry without limitation both in and out of the church (depending upon the circumstances, of course).

Against “bad” marriages? Of course, I am. I’m deeply against selfish and trivial marriage. But sexual orientation alone implies neither “good” or “bad” marriage. That someone wishes to love one someone as deeply, as unselfishly, and as responsibly and committed as I love my husband, is a beautiful thing that strengthens families and marriages.

]]> By: regazza http://blog.westsrbdio.org/2009/09/14/a-few-thoughts-on-marriage-love-in-the-western-world-and-the-eastern-church/comment-page-1/#comment-138 regazza Sat, 07 Nov 2009 17:00:21 +0000 http://blog.westsrbdio.org/?p=128#comment-138 This debate is a simply between Christian love vs nihilistic way of love. Part of the global problems today is marriages without love, the subject of love without carrying each other and so many people who are afraid. Life in general is a sacrifice not just marriage.....people have good and bad years in life and we don't have to be afraid! This debate is a simply between Christian love vs nihilistic way of love.
Part of the global problems today is marriages without love, the subject of love without carrying each other and so many people who are afraid.

Life in general is a sacrifice not just marriage…..people have good and bad years in life
and we don’t have to be afraid!

]]> By: George Patsourakos http://blog.westsrbdio.org/2009/09/14/a-few-thoughts-on-marriage-love-in-the-western-world-and-the-eastern-church/comment-page-1/#comment-136 George Patsourakos Sun, 25 Oct 2009 01:55:13 +0000 http://blog.westsrbdio.org/?p=128#comment-136 I believe that the decline in family values began in the early 1970s with the women's movement. This resulted in women joining the workforce in huge numbers, while leaving their children to be taken care of at daycare centers. Work and money began to prevail over the solid family. Moreover, during the past few years, several states in America have made laws allowing same-sex unions. Again, family values were ignored. We know that in Christianity, marriage is considered a union between one man and one woman. The Christian Church needs to promote this and similar values, if marriage is to return to the blessed state it once was. I believe that the decline in family values began in the early 1970s with the women’s movement. This resulted in women joining the workforce in huge numbers, while leaving their children to be taken care of at daycare centers. Work and money began to prevail over the solid family.

Moreover, during the past few years, several states in America have made laws allowing same-sex unions. Again, family values were ignored.

We know that in Christianity, marriage is considered a union between one man and one woman. The Christian Church needs to promote this and similar values, if marriage is to return to the blessed state it once was.

]]> By: George Patsourakos http://blog.westsrbdio.org/2009/09/14/a-few-thoughts-on-marriage-love-in-the-western-world-and-the-eastern-church/comment-page-1/#comment-135 George Patsourakos Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:41:07 +0000 http://blog.westsrbdio.org/?p=128#comment-135 Christians need to keep in mind that marriage is a contract between one man and one woman. This is the way that Christ interprets a marriage, and it is the way we should interpret it. Christians need to keep in mind that marriage is a contract between one man and one woman. This is the way that Christ interprets a marriage, and it is the way we should interpret it.

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